HOLY ASS HAT![views:14043][posts:43]_________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 5:41pm - sxealex ""] bennyhillifier |
| ______________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 5:47pm - hungtableed ""] geeesh. What an asshole. Did he say that he has that at his house!?!?!?!?!? What a dick! I wonder how many octaves are encompassed in that set.... I would love to see whomever that is speaking on the video playing that set. |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 5:55pm - ZenErik ""] Terry Bozzio. Crazy mofo. More drums than I could ever want. |
| __________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 6:04pm - sinistas ""] er... bennyhillifier |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 6:08pm - ZenErik ""] Just a note. You can't possibly say much negative about his drumming ability. He was one of Frank Zappa's drummers, I believe. His current setup and solo albums is another story. |
| ________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 6:10pm - retzam ""] hungtableed said:I wonder how many octaves are encompassed in that set.... Technically, none are. Unless there are some roto-toms or timpani hidden somewhere in there that I can't see, those toms do not produce definite pitches. That whole spiel he's giving in that video about having lots of drums so he can "change keys" and "play melodies" is nonsense, he has no clue what he's talking about. |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 6:11pm - sxealex ""] hes a great drummer. id love to have that kit for a day... it would be cool to have boobs for a day too. |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 6:20pm - ZenErik ""] retzam said:hungtableed said:I wonder how many octaves are encompassed in that set.... Technically, none are. Unless there are some roto-toms or timpani hidden somewhere in there that I can't see, those toms do not produce definite pitches. That whole spiel he's giving in that video about having lots of drums so he can "change keys" and "play melodies" is nonsense, he has no clue what he's talking about. You have no idea what you're talking about. Toms can MOST DEFINITELY be tuned to a specific pitch. Also, if you actually paid attention, you'd notice many of his toms are piccolo toms. No bottom head...Which makes them similar to roto-toms. |
| ____________________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 6:47pm - theaccurseddrummer ""] Who says drums can't be tuned to be able to play melodies and key changes? Does the basic concept of tuning instruments not come into play here? They may not be sustained notes like you'd find on a guitar or piano, but the very sounds that they produce technically are musical notes and can be tuned in or out of key. Bozzio's been tuning to suit the melody of the music since he played with Zappa in the 1970's, this isn't anything new, but he's not making shit up. Someone from RTTP telling Terry Bozzio that he has no clue what he's talking about is, yeah, not even worth an analogy. |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 7:14pm - sxealex ""] actually you guys are both kinda right and kinda wrong. when u hit a drum u change the tension at the rim on the head so the pitch changes based on where on the drum you hit it and throughout the duration of the hit. but you can achieve and average note out of it. its just not very acurate. on drums like that at least. bells and cymbals obviously dont change and you can achieve pitches more easily and consistantly. |
| ________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:10pm - retzam ""] Well, obviously when you hit one of those drums, there is a pitch involved, and obviously drums can be tuned to lower or higher pitches. The point is they're indefinite pitches: the type of sound wave that is sent forth when you hit one of those drums is not the same type of sound wave that produces notes. You can't tune a tom that you find on a drumset to any of the twelve pitches recognized in the western tonal system. Obviously you can make "melodies" using multiple different toms with different indefinite pitches, but it wouldn't be a melody that you could write down on paper, just one you could hear. It's like, if you set up 4 plastic bowls of different sizes, you could also play a "melody" on that. Now, I'm sorry I offended you people, but I think you should realize that drumset toms don't release definite pitches, since most of you have probably been in a band before and realize that the drummer doesn't have to retune his drums each time there's a keychange. |
| ________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:12pm - retzam ""] theaccurseddrummer said:Someone from RTTP telling Terry Bozzio that he has no clue what he's talking about is, yeah, not even worth an analogy. I don't fucking care who that guy is, how good he is at drums, or how many drums are on his drumset, the bottom line is the soundwaves are cluttered and don't form notes. Maybe you guys should just read up on indefinite pitch and definite pitch for like 5 minutes and you'll see what I mean. |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:22pm - sxealex ""] the tighter the heads the closer to "definate" pitches u get man. and a definate pitch is abstract like infinity. |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:23pm - sxealex ""] a guitar string has the same issue just on a smaller scale and we cant tell. |
| ________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:29pm - retzam ""] Yes, that's because the only audible overtones a guitar string produces are 3rds, 5ths, and octaves, so they blend together naturally and are heard as one note to a human ear that isn't straining to hear them individually, whereas "tom-toms" and snares and bass drums, your average trap kit drums, produce an extraordinary amount of overtones that basically overwhelm your ears to the point where you just hear it as one indefinite pitch. |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:36pm - sxealex ""] they only produce more overtones because the presure of the tension at the rim is less than the pressure of strike. ass you close that gap the overtones get overlapped into the avg pitch. like think of it like this if u can move the head when u hit(not so tight) it ull change the pitch but if u cant ull just vibrate it at its current pitch. |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:36pm - sxealex ""] as not ass* |
| ________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:40pm - retzam ""] I see what you're saying, and it's completely true, but the point is, even though there is pitch fluctuation like you're describing, it's the overtones you mentioned that are causing the lack of definite pitch, not the fluctuation, and that's why, as I mentioned before, you don't have to retune drums to play different songs in different keys. |
| ________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:45pm - retzam ""] To help clarify what I mean by that post, suppose, like you said, a drum is tuned loose, so you hit it and a sound is released that fluctuates to a lower pitch. If they were definite pitches, then both the initial pitch and the ending pitch would have to be notes in the current chord or it would be dissonant and awful sounding. But we know that when you hit a drum, no matter what the current chord is, it isn't dissonant and awful sounding, therefore the drum is not contributing a definite pitch of its own. |
| ______________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:50pm - hungtableed ""] [img] |
| ________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:51pm - retzam ""] You're right Steven Hawkings, as always. |
| ______________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:55pm - hungtableed ""] hahahaha, I'm sorry. I was reading all this technical speak concerning the properties of drum tuning and for some reason I was developing a mental picture of Steven Hawkings. |
| ________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 9:58pm - retzam ""] hungtableed said:hahahaha, I'm sorry. I was reading all this technical speak concerning the properties of drum tuning and for some reason I was developing a mental picture of Steven Hawkings. Drumtunings, spacetime, it's all the same really :spineyes: |
| __________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 10:03pm - sxealex ""] dude the over tones fluctuate with the drum head flexing at the same time... like when u slide one note on a guitar. |
| __________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 10:06pm - sxealex ""] like when u use a trem it doesnt make things sound out of key on one note... cut the whole string is changing tension along with the overtones from the 3rd etc.... |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 10:16pm - retzam ""] Yeah, the overtones fluctuate too, of course they do. But there are so many overtones, so the soundwave is cluttered, and that's why there is no definite pitch, not because of the fluctuation. I see what you're saying now about the tighter you tune the drum, the closer to definite pitch you get, because when you tune a drum tighter, you're making an increasing amount of overtones decreasingly audible to the ear. But I think there is a communication issue here. Basically our only disagreement, so it seems to me, as that you feel that it's because of the fluctuation of pitch that causes the indefinite nature of the pitch, whereas I'm saying it's sheer amount of cluttering overtones. I don't think the argument can go any further, cause we're just gonna both keep restating things from previous posts. But I'm glad you are actually smart, instead of resorting to insults and assuming Terry Bozzio is right about everything. |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 10:18pm - retzam ""] is*, not as: "is* that you feel..." |
| __________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 10:24pm - sxealex ""] im pretty sure it is just the fluctuation... basically just cuz if u have something tightened to a certain tightness you will get a certain tone out of it if u hit it in a certain spot. when the tighness changes any vibrations will change with it. so like when u hit a drum its like a short bend till the vibration is muffled. thats why its like "beeeoooo" or whatever. i dont see why the overtones would overwhelm ur ear... but i dunno im not well read so show me that shit. |
| __________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 10:24pm - sxealex ""] dont worry im a typo machine |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 10:58pm - retzam ""] sxealex said:im pretty sure it is just the fluctuation... basically just cuz if u have something tightened to a certain tightness you will get a certain tone out of it if u hit it in a certain spot. when the tighness changes any vibrations will change with it. so like when u hit a drum its like a short bend till the vibration is muffled. thats why its like "beeeoooo" or whatever. i dont see why the overtones would overwhelm ur ear... but i dunno im not well read so show me that shit. I'm not particularly well-read either. I'm just going off my education over the years. One minute, I'll try to find a few websites that contain something of what I'm saying. |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 11:22pm - retzam ""] General information about percussion instruments:http://uk.encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761561835/Percussion_Instruments.html This is a wonderful explanation of the waves involved in music, towards the bottom you will find reasons that do a better job of explaining what I'm saying than I am: http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/~michaelf/acoustics-notes.htm Also, check out this PDF, go to the 5th page (Complex Sound Waves, Music And Harmonic Structure): http://www.physics.isu.edu/~hackmart/soundwaves100.PDF |
| _________________________________ [Apr 18,2007 11:25pm - retzam ""] Let me add that I'm not sure what is about roto-toms that makes them an exception, but I know that many composers write for them demanding specific pitches, just as they do for timpani, so who knows. |
| ________________________________________ [Apr 19,2007 2:00am - ArrowHead NLI ""] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIzFffe440M You can tune drums to specific melodic sequence. Video is irrefutable. The more drums, the more keys and notes available, just like he said. Terry Bozzio wins. Shut up and eat your crow. |
| ________________________________________ [Apr 19,2007 2:06am - ArrowHead NLI ""] retzam said: I'm not particularly well-read either. I'm just going off my education over the years. You know who's well read? Terry Bozzio's well read. I've heard that guy knows a shitload about drums. Someone should ask him. |
| ________________________________ [Apr 19,2007 2:13am - retzam ""] Wow. You clearly didn't look at any of the information presented to you. You get a gold star. I've said nothing but fact in this thread, and you've apparently taken none of it in. So either read my posts and the links provided, or go on pretending you know anything about soundwaves. And I tell you what, sit down at a drumset sometime and have someone plug a keyboard in and play something, and guess what! I bet you can play along to it without tuning your drumset at all! Fuck you, I'm done with this thread, and if Terry Bozzio thinks that his 4 fucking bass drums help him play in different keys, then let him think that, I don't fucking care anymore. |
| ________________________________ [Apr 19,2007 2:24am - retzam ""] And the only thing that has definite pitch in that ridiculous video that's so "irrefutable" are the stupid electronic noises. Edit: Oh yeah, and you're completely erroneous use of the term "melodic sequence" doesn't help with the illusion of relevant intelligence you're trying to create. |
| ____________________________________________ [Apr 19,2007 2:25am - TheFilthyFrenchman ""] If drums cant be tuned to a specific pitch then why do manufacturers of some kits give a specific pitch for the best resonance of a drum? Obsiously theres some gray area but for all intents and purposes, who the fuck cares? |
| ________________________________ [Apr 19,2007 2:30am - retzam ""] TheFilthyFrenchman said:If drums cant be tuned to a specific pitch then why do manufacturers of some kits give a specific pitch for the best resonance of a drum? Obsiously theres some gray area but for all intents and purposes, who the fuck cares? I have no clue about that. It's probably something you can ballpark with a tuner by hitting the drum very lightly and muting parts of it, since that will eliminate overtones. |
| _________________________________ [Apr 19,2007 2:48am - sxealex ""] i checked out the top two but i didnt feel like downloading the pdf :p... im getting something different than what i thought you were explaining from the stuff at the bottom of the second. |
| ________________________________________ [Apr 19,2007 2:50am - ArrowHead NLI ""] Retzam, all percussive instruments: piano, drums, even a gong, have a naturally produced pitch. It's called timbre. Just like varying velocities on a piano will vary PITCH, so it is with drums. However the base pitch is determined by the size, shape, and material of the shell. You can tune a drum to it's natural timbre and it will produce clear pitch with far fewer overtones. When I was at school actually STUDYING music I took a wonderful physics of music class that explained many of the concepts you're trying to bludgeon your way through. The bottom line is: Terry Bozzio has forgotten more about drums than you will ever know. |
| _________________________________ [Apr 19,2007 6:58am - ZenErik ""] /\ This guy is intelligent. Oh, and as for drums being given a specific pitch by some companies...That would be DW. It's not the most accurate process because I believe they find the pitch before adding the hardware. Anyway, I don't know why this guy is going on about a timpani producing a specific pitch and drum set tom not. I played timpani for 3 years. The pitch fluctuates depending on what part of the drum you hit. Just like with a drum set tom, the clearest sound is right between the edge of the drum and the center. The most attack is in the center. But obviously, to produce the least overtones...You'd want to find the natural pitch of the shell and then tune the batter and resonant to that pitch. |
| ______________________________________ [Apr 19,2007 8:01am - the_reverend ""] WTF! RTTP used to be the #1 thing when you googled the word ass hat. |
| __________________________________ [Apr 19,2007 11:36am - sxealex ""] well drums have a slight difference to make it more confusing. since they have lugs and more points to tighten it. so its not as straight forwards as a solid peice of metal or a stretched string i believe. |
| ___________________________________________ [Apr 19,2007 11:41am - DaveFromTheGrave ""] sinistas said:er... bennyhillifier this music blows |