What is the musical appeal of Dream Theater / Symphony X and the like?[views:15253][posts:89]_____________________________________ [May 22,2009 10:58am - arilliusbm ""] Honestly, someone explain to me what is/has been so special about these bands. I can understand & respect the technical skills of all musicians involved in these bands. Is that the only thing why people drool over them? I also understand they put on excellent shows. The only DT album I can kind of listen to is Awake. But this kind of stuff contains 0 emotion in the music. But how come it seems the bands that are both technical and emotion-filled are ignored or forgotten? First band that somewhat relates to their style is Psychotic Waltz. What the fuck? How come no body drools over this band? Don't people realize they were 15 years ahead of their time in 1990? Alright, enough said. |
| ____________________________________ [May 22,2009 11:00am - dreadkill ""] psychotic waltz was great, old dream theater was great, and i like symphony x but i'm not nutsos over them. |
| _____________________________________ [May 22,2009 11:02am - arilliusbm ""] My buddy keeps telling me to hear a new DT song because there are supposedly "blastbeats" |
| ____________________________________________ [May 22,2009 11:05am - FuckIsMySignature ""] newer DT has been getting heavier and heavier... love the musicanship from this band but i still loathe the vocalist. if they had a death growls (or at least non-faggotish singer) for their music that band would be kicking the shit out alot the music out there these days. |
| _____________________________________ [May 22,2009 11:07am - arilliusbm ""] I heard a song of their album a year or two ago(lost track after emotion left their music) and it was a complete rip off of Opeth. |
| _____________________________________ [May 22,2009 11:11am - porphyria ""] dream theater rules, while I dislike most of the ballads and keyboard solo's I still enjoy listening to most of the material. Systematic Chaos, one of their most recent is a pretty good album and you hear a bit more emotion in the music I think due to outside influences from opeth/porcupine tree, ect. kind of making them be slightly less robotic. anyways, enough talk about emo. |
| ________________________________________ [May 22,2009 11:12am - xitsdoomsdayx ""] Ill give DT and symphony X an F-. Not my cup of tea. |
| ___________________________________________ [May 22,2009 11:12am - largefreakatzero ""] I can appreciate some Dream Theater in small doses. I hate Symphony X. |
| _____________________________________ [May 22,2009 11:47am - arilliusbm ""] no body has yet to explain the musicial appeal of these bands outside of their technicality and virtuosity of their instruments. I rest my case. emotion always wins over technicality, but sometimes bands can pull off both. |
| ____________________________________________ [May 22,2009 11:49am - FuckIsMySignature ""] arilliusbm said:no body has yet to explain the musicial appeal of these bands outside of their technicality and virtuosity of their instruments. I rest my case. emotion always wins over technicality, but sometimes bands can pull off both. why cant technicality and virtuousity be appealing... thats pretty much the reason i like them...plus some cool riffage. |
| ____________________________________ [May 22,2009 11:52am - dreadkill ""] i prefer emotion over technicality in music, but like to hear both together as well. |
| ___________________________________ [May 22,2009 11:55am - sinistas ""] Anything up through Scenes is alright with me. Also, I fail to see how there's no emotion in say, Wait For Sleep or Space-Dye Vest |
| _______________________________________ [May 22,2009 12:13pm - Phrozenspite ""] Symphony X has a similar appeal to power metal for me... some of their songs do have a good bit of emotion, The Accolade Part1/part2, Awakenings, Whispers, Rediscovery part 2... with them its a lot harder since most of their lyrics are fantasy based to have the emotional aspect. |
| _______________________________________ [May 22,2009 12:15pm - SkinSandwich ""] [img] |
| _______________________________________ [May 22,2009 12:17pm - the_reverend ""] Magic. |
| _____________________________________ [May 22,2009 12:36pm - porphyria ""] arilliusbm said:no body has yet to explain the musicial appeal of these bands outside of their technicality and virtuosity of their instruments. I rest my case. emotion always wins over technicality, but sometimes bands can pull off both. um, because I enjoy listening to it. I listen to death metal too which isn't the most emotional style of music either. glad you could rest your emotional case. |
| _______________________________ [May 22,2009 12:42pm - Yeti ""] i am 100% behind you Jim, i've never understood it either. my brother is a big DT fan so i've heard plenty of it, but i just don't find any interest at all in the music. that epic power metal stuff doesn't do anything for me either, Symphony X, Blind Guardian, Hammerfall, Rhapsody, etc. |
| _____________________________________ [May 22,2009 12:55pm - arilliusbm ""] you've guys got me all wrong! I enjoy and respect the virtuosity and technicality of both bands (many other technical as bands too) and I strive to be as good at my instruments as they are, however I just don't understand how people can listen to this stuff day-in-and-day-out. I listen to A LOT of technical/prog music but fail to see how these two bands are still relevant and how people obsess over them - especially DT. Sometimes bands get too carried away in music theory that they lose all emotion. I'm not saying DT doesn't have emotion in every song; it's only about 75%+ of them that seem too robotic. It seems DT takes the credit and cake for a huge majority of this style of music, whereas bands like Psychotic Waltz withered away into the shadows. |
| _____________________________________ [May 22,2009 12:56pm - arilliusbm ""] If I need an emotional output (sounds like a very faggy way to put it) the last thing I'd throw on is DT. But to each their own. |
| ____________________________________ [May 22,2009 1:08pm - porphyria ""] arilliusbm said:you've guys got me all wrong! I enjoy and respect the virtuosity and technicality of both bands (many other technical as bands too) and I strive to be as good at my instruments as they are, however I just don't understand how people can listen to this stuff day-in-and-day-out. I listen to A LOT of technical/prog music but fail to see how these two bands are still relevant and how people obsess over them - especially DT. Sometimes bands get too carried away in music theory that they lose all emotion. I'm not saying DT doesn't have emotion in every song; it's only about 75%+ of them that seem too robotic. It seems DT takes the credit and cake for a huge majority of this style of music, whereas bands like Psychotic Waltz withered away into the shadows. who said any of us listen to it day in day out? I also wouldn't consider Psychotic Waltz as technically proficient as DT nor capable of writing as much good material. Confessor is an awesome band but I can understand why they aren't HUGE for the same reason, they don't write the most listenable songs but I still think they're awesome. and maybe Psychotic Waltz faded away because they wrote a song called 'faded' or because their singer plays a flute in this video: bennyhillifier or maybe because of their website design? http://www.psychoticwaltz.com |
| __________________________________ [May 22,2009 1:12pm - brian_dc ""] I'm with you man. I was really into this stuff when I was still first learning how to play. I was wowed by it. Rightfully so. As I grew as a player, I've just become less impressed. Not to say that I think I've reached a level of Michael Romeo or Petrucci, I just think that there are so many more interesting things you can do with music than play super technical things. I also think the technicality gets a little overstated with these prog bands. A lot of what DT and SymX do are actually based around fairly simple chord progressions and sort of "standard fair" odd time signature rhythms. The leads are absolutely insane...obviously. |
| ____________________________________ [May 22,2009 1:17pm - arilliusbm ""] well, you have to remember they were releasing some heavy and technical stuff back in 1990. They aren't a DT, but they severely got overlooked for a band of their style and skill. I always considered the flute as an inspiration taken from Jethro Tull. And the day-in-day-out comment isn't directed towards anyone here; I know some people that never shut up about Dream Theater. They don't listen to extreme metal or anything like that and can't find any appeal in it. I do know a few that fell in love with Opeth when DT toured with them recently however. I don't want to come of as disrespecting anyones opinion on this matter; it is open for dicussion. My personal opinion is that DT isn't what they used to be, and music isn't all about being a virtuoso on your instrument. I listen to jazz sometimes and hold high respect for jazz musicians, however sometimes I lose interest after sometime because it's all the same. Perhaps one of the best jazz albums of all time is Kind of Blue by Miles Davis. Nothing overly technical for jazz, but very laid back and full of feeling. |
| __________________________________ [May 22,2009 1:19pm - brian_dc ""] just to be clear. I was just talking about DT and SymX. I was typing before that video was posted. |
| ____________________________________ [May 22,2009 1:22pm - arilliusbm ""] PS: Psychotic Waltz's first album is really the best one by far.. |
| ____________________________________ [May 22,2009 1:26pm - porphyria ""] Perhaps Psychotic Waltz had similar bad luck as ANVIL. There's no reason why someone can't appreciate both technical aspects and straight-up good songwriting in music. I tend to lean more towards technical aspects because it can be more interesting to listen to and watch but have no problem listening to less technical music as long as it's nothing on the radio, ect. If you don't want to learn your instrument inside & out then no one's forcing you to, doesn't mean you still can't write songs with emotion. |
| ____________________________________ [May 22,2009 1:27pm - porphyria ""] [img] |
| __________________________________ [May 22,2009 1:28pm - brian_dc ""] I get that. I think people should push themselves to become technically proficient. When I listen to Dream Theater, I just feel like the whole purpose of the output is "here, listen to what I can do" that's where I jump off the wagon. |
| ____________________________________ [May 22,2009 1:28pm - arilliusbm ""] I still think Calculating Infinity is more appealing than some DT albums! |
| ____________________________________ [May 22,2009 1:35pm - arilliusbm ""] if you guys want, I can upload PW's first album if you haven't heard it. feel like I'm advertising the band right now but I spun it last night and then listened to dream theater, hence this thread |
| _____________________________________ [May 22,2009 2:50pm - Beorht-Dana ""] I hear plenty of emotion in DT and Symphony X. If it doesn't really connect with you though that's understandable. Different strokes for different folks and all that hippie crap. |
| _________________________________________ [May 22,2009 3:56pm - Conservationist ""] Progressive metal and progressive rock can be used by dumb people to feel smart. Other than that, brian_dc's comments nailed it. |
| ___________________________________ [May 22,2009 4:25pm - JDDomnli ""] the level of technicality or emotion varies from part to part with these bands. I love both bands. It depends on the song and the moments in the song. The shred parts contrast the emotional parts in a way that makes each side stand out. It's dynamic and I like that about these guys. I've been listening to DT's When Dream and Day Unite and they go from some seriously heavy parts to really mellow things. Listen to The Killing Hand by DT. Btw I really like James LaBrie's voice even though that album has Dominici on vox. |
| _________________________________________ [May 22,2009 4:58pm - Conservationist ""] porphyria said:[img] That's total child pr0n, man. |
| _______________________________________ [May 22,2009 5:12pm - xitsdoomsdayx ""] I got a simple solution, fuck them!:middlefinger: |
| __________________________________________ [May 22,2009 5:12pm - MillenialKingdom ""] I love Symphony X and only casually like Dream Theater. Symphony X appeals to me because of the Power Metal aspects of their Progressive Metal. I feel they have tons of emotion in their lyrics and in their music. Just look at the last 2 albums. They're chock full of great arrangements and vocal lines. Dream Theater is a musician's band. They exist to exhibit progressive technicality and nothing more. |
| ______________________________________________ [May 22,2009 5:17pm - BobNOMAAMRooney nli ""] Conservationist said:Progressive metal and progressive rock can be used by dumb people to feel smart. |
| ____________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 1:08pm - arilliusbm ""] bump for the sole reason of being a prick |
| ___________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 1:59pm - spaldino ""] have you even ACTUALLY listened to Symphony X at all? no emotion in their music and all technical douchey wanking? they have so many groovy, non-technical riffs in their shit all the time. they have huge vocal harmonies that are similar to Queen at times... they have tons of feeling to their music. listen to The Odyssey. 20 minute song that varies often and has a whole slew of catchy, emotion-driven music and vocal melodies. i don't think you have actually listened to it without a biased opinion on them because of fan boys resting SX's balls on their chins. my bandmate/roommate doesn't like technical music and pretty much hates metal aside from Megadeth (put it this way... he thinks System Has Failed is the best Megadeth album...) and i got him into Symphony X and he loves them now. |
| ___________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 2:01pm - spaldino ""] MillenialKingdom said: Just look at the last 2 albums. They're chock full of great arrangements and vocal lines. my two favorite Symphony X albums. I like the other stuff too but The Odyssey and Paradise Lost are just too good. |
| ___________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 2:05pm - spaldino ""] triple post, i know... but the rif that starts right after 1:42 in The Walls of Babylon on Paradise Lost makes me want to clothesline Lex Luger's grandmother. |
| ____________________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 2:14pm - MikeOvDecrepitvde ""] I made an attempt long ago to try and get into power metal, because some of the riffing and leads are cool. In the end, Gothenberg style Melodic Metal sufficed for what I had wanted out of power metal. Technical, melodic riffing, strong leads with the added bonus of a vocal style that actually appealed to me. |
| ____________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 2:20pm - arilliusbm ""] I've heard Symphony X and own 2 of their albums. I just can't listen to it over and over and over. One thing I DO like about it is the neoclassical style and song writing; but I still can't get into it. Just not my cup of tea, regardless of their songwriting skills. Have you heard Psychotic Waltz? |
| ___________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 2:25pm - spaldino ""] a little bit of their stuff, yeah. i listen to a lot of 70's prog/art/space rock stuff so i guess im a douche. ever heard Emerson, Lake, And Palmer? not the radio shit... but shit like "Tarkus". if you thought DT was wankery... oh man, are you in for a surprise. |
| ____________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 2:29pm - arilliusbm ""] Of course, I'm in love with Greg Lake and 60s,70s prog. I also love Brain Salad Surgery and others. Little known fact: Mario Kart's music is a rip off of ELP |
| _________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 2:34pm - reimroc ""] liquid tension > dream theater |
| ____________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 2:35pm - arilliusbm ""] liquid tension > dream theater. backed hard |
| ______________________________ [Jul 16,2009 3:38pm - Yeti ""] arilliusbm said:Of course, I'm in love with Greg Lake and 60s,70s prog. I also love Brain Salad Surgery and others. Little known fact: Mario Kart's music is a rip off of ELP really? i was just playing that last night. |
| ____________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 3:40pm - arilliusbm ""] if it was the SNES version, yes. some of the songs are completely 100% influence by ELP. It's so obvious with the way they use the "moog" on Mario Kart |
| _________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 3:51pm - reimroc ""] castlevania: bloodlines soundtrack metal cover band anyone? |
| ____________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 3:55pm - arilliusbm ""] if you listen to the ELP song "Trilogy" on the album of the same name, you will hear Mario Kart music towards the end. |
| ___________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 4:04pm - spaldino ""] reimroc said:castlevania: bloodlines soundtrack metal cover band anyone? bloodlines music? really? i mean most of it is staple castlevania music... but castlevania 4 i think has the best soundtrack out of the original Castlevanias. |
| _________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 4:08pm - reimroc ""] oh it has a great soundtrack but bloodlines is my personal fav |
| ___________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 4:12pm - spaldino ""] the genesis sound chip was kind of terrible actually... but i have no problems with the music in bloodlines at all. |
| ____________________________________ [Jul 16,2009 4:14pm - arilliusbm ""] sigh. everyone always disses the genesis sound. I always liked it. the SNES chip was a little more realistic sounding, but genesis had some of the best "techno"-based music for games. a fine example of this would be vectorman's music. |
| ________________________________________________ [Jul 23,2009 10:08pm - IllinoisEnemaBradness ""] arilliusbm said:sigh. everyone always disses the genesis sound. I always liked it. the SNES chip was a little more realistic sounding, but genesis had some of the best "techno"-based music for games. a fine example of this would be vectorman's music. i always loved the Sonic music |
| _____________________________________ [Jul 23,2009 10:10pm - arilliusbm ""] alright, i'll bump a thread where I uploaded the sonic soundtracks haha |
| ________________________________________________ [Jul 23,2009 10:13pm - IllinoisEnemaBradness ""] really? that would rule |
| __________________________________________ [Jul 24,2009 12:31am - Conservationist ""] I knew I played Descent II too much when I started to "like" the music. |
| ____________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:11pm - arilliusbm ""] Also bumped for relevance. Fuck DT. |
| ________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:12pm - Mark_R ""] What is this relevant to? Anyways, Descent II was awesome. I kept losing the CD ROM though so I never made it to the end :( I did read those novels that came out earlier this decade. Heh. |
| ______________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:16pm - Lamp ""] http://www.returntothepit.com/view.php?formid=78144 |
| ________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:17pm - Mark_R ""] My answer to the OP. I am a big fan of Dream Theater because of their songwriting, especially in their early years (through 1997). They've actually gotten worse as they've tried to be more metal and it just sounds like they're trying too hard. Train of Thought, for example, SOUNDS great but lacks depth and thus does not reward replays. Just gets old. Symphony X is the same way, but their heyday was just a little later (1997-2002). When they started trying to be Pantera with synths, my interest dropped like a rock. I also think Russell Allen is abandoning what made his voice so good (see: every album through V, then the ones after it & Adrenaline Mob). Psychotic Waltz was and are a brilliant band. Easily better than both Symphony X and DT. But I think their first-generation fanbase largely moved on from metal. Their best chance to rejuvenate interest, besides touring the U.S. again, is to re-issue those older albums in normal CD versions at normal prices. The fancy-pants vinyl box set that came out earlier this year is good for old time fans but I don't see a new curious person shelling out for it. |
| ____________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:19pm - arilliusbm ""] Josh's statements about DT and Cynic. I can't stand most DT fans. They're to metal as what Rush fans are to... Well, fuck Rush fans. yea, you heard it right. FUCK YOU RUSH FANS. The fanboy fans, not the casual fans. The ones that hold their chin up high because they listen to smart music. |
| ____________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:21pm - arilliusbm ""] Good answer. This board needs more Mark Rs. Perhaps some Mark Ns or Mark Ds? |
| ________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:28pm - Mark_R ""] Thanks man. I wrote kind of a lot because I was trying to rush out my thoughts all at once. |
| ______________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:30pm - goatcatalyst ""] arilliusbm said: FUCK YOU RUSH FANS. Go tell it on the mountain! Only thing worse than Rush are Rush fans. Insufferable buttdarts. |
| ________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:37pm - Mark_R ""] You must like SOME Rush at least |
| _________________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:46pm - bobnomaamrooney ""] goatcatalyst said: arilliusbm said: FUCK YOU RUSH FANS. Go tell it on the mountain! Only thing worse than Rush are Rush fans. Insufferable buttdarts. |
| ______________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:55pm - ark ""] DT, SX, Rush were gateway bands for me. I say pishaw to them today, all of it is just too candy-coated. Geddy hasn't sounded good since before I was born. I still think The Odyssey rules, though. |
| ____________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:56pm - arilliusbm ""] I do enjoy some Rush, but in small doses. The hardcore Rush fans are the worst. They think every band is inferior to Rush, and therefore everyone else is inferior. |
| ______________________________ [Oct 27,2011 5:59pm - Lamp ""] Hell, even an asshole like me on a quest for musical self-destruction thinks Rush has some good songs. |
| ___________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 6:04pm - narkybark ""] I think I liked 2112, but I can't really remember. |
| ____________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 6:26pm - Spaldino ""] arilliusbm said:Good answer. This board needs more Mark Rs. Perhaps some Mark Ns or Mark Ds? Moar liek mark d's NUTZ, amirite?! |
| _________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 9:39pm - Doomkid ""] bennyhillifier |
| ________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 9:43pm - KEVORD ""] I love Rush. 2112, Hemispheres, and A Farewell to Kings are three of the greatest albums ever made. |
| ________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 9:59pm - burnsy ""] ark said:I still think The Odyssey rules, though.backed hard. |
| ________________________________ [Oct 27,2011 10:06pm - Seth ""] Doomkid said: bennyhillifier Those vocals and flute shit is annoying and makes it sound like every other kind of crap out there. To light for my taste and to happy sounding. All others enjoy his. |
| ______________________________________ [Oct 28,2011 7:08am - frankovhell ""] This thread is full of the music i find absolutely abhorrent. Id honestly rather listen to old outlaw country music or something, ive found even things in that genre that i can get into but this is just mind boggling to me how anyone would like it. |
| ______________________________________ [Oct 28,2011 7:18am - goatcatalyst ""] Mark_R said:You must like SOME Rush at least You got me... YYZ |
| ______________________________ [Jun 8,2012 3:29pm - anon ""] Interestingly enough, early last year this was a Europe tour: Symphony X Nevermore Voivod Psychotic Waltz Toxik If only North America got that tour, instead we got Symphony X and Powerglove with that shitfest Blackguard and some shit local bands. |
| __________________________________ [Jun 8,2012 3:32pm - arktouros ""] arilliusbm said: Perhaps one of the best jazz albums of all time is Kind of Blue by Miles Davis. Nothing overly technical for jazz, but very laid back and full of feeling. GREAT album |
| _______________________________ [Jun 8,2012 3:35pm - Mark_R ""] Wait, Toxik did something? |
| ______________________________ [Jun 8,2012 3:39pm - anon ""] Toxik have done two Europe tours and that's been it thusfar. They need to fucking play a show or two in the states. If Morbid Saint, Blind Illusion and Sanctuary can all get back together and play select US dates, there's no reason why Toxik can't. Grumblegrumble. |
| _______________________________________ [Jun 8,2012 4:10pm - SteveyBicks22 ""] I haven't heard Symphony X but Dream Theatre has one of the best guitar players in hard rock. |
| _______________________________________ [Jun 8,2012 4:16pm - DestroyYouAlot ""] "Geddy Lee, best bass player ever!" [img] |
| __________________________________ [Jun 8,2012 5:06pm - arktouros ""] SteveyBicks22 said:I haven't heard Symphony X but Dream Theatre has one of the best guitar players in hard rock. yeah, yeah, whatever that means. IMHO, Symphony X guitar work is far more interesting. |
| __________________________________ [Jun 8,2012 5:20pm - dreadkill ""] DestroyYouAlot said:"Geddy Lee, best bass player ever!" [img] this is pretty much true. rush is the greatest. fuck all y'all haytiz! |
| _______________________________ [Jun 8,2012 5:21pm - Mark_R ""] I think he's trolling, but ... having listened extensively to DT and SyX for a little over a decade, I have to admit that IMO DT comes out on top in the guitar work and songwriting areas. Romeo is probably a technically better rock/metal guitarist than Petrucci. But his choice to work within the neoclassical framework - followed by the faux-aggro-metal framework - has limited Symphony X's ability to be genuinely interesting across a longer period of time. DT are obviously no strangers to derivation and shoplifting from their influences. But their more flexible hard-rock style allows them more variety in what they can write and it gives Petrucci more room to actually write something emotionally engaging. The past two DT albums, against my better instincts, have contained songs that are genuinely interesting and have a lot more repeat-listening value. Maybe the difference is just that DT's style has wider appeal. Maybe the difference is that Petrucci is better at working in his frame than Romeo is in his frame. Whatever the case, DT comes out ahead. In before "both bands are fucking boring" etc. etc. I know nobody likes them. |
| ______________________________ [Jun 8,2012 5:24pm - anon ""] Anyone who hates on Symphony X WHO HASN'T listened to The Divine Wings of Tragedy album in entirety needs to shut the fuck up before judging SX. Post-V Symphony X doesn't compete to their third, fourth and fifth albums. |
| ___________________________________ [Jun 8,2012 5:30pm - arilliusbm ""] I have Divine Wings. Snooze doodle fest. Fuck the haters. |